Or perhaps to better control the masses? People who fear the wrath of God are easily persuaded to follow his rules and the rules of his agents (rabbis, pastors, reverends, priests, deacons, etc.) on earth?

Now, if your boss asked you to explain why you failed to complete a project properly and you responded with "who really knows why" or if your stock broker was responsible for the loss of $20,000 of your IBM shares and you asked him how did that happen and he told you, "i don't really know, it just did," would you accept that? Why are we so willing to believe in a God without needing proof, especially when we need proof for EVERYTHING else?

Quite true. Agents of religion have always been very close to and wielded a lot of influence over the rulers of many societies, both ancient and modern (that is, when they aren't the rulers themselves). Marx said that "religion is the opiate of the masses" and I agree with him.

Yes, I forgot to add to that list of agents: presidents, campaign managers, slave owners, armies, etc.

In the beginning, God made everything perfect. When man made the choice to go against God's word, and yield to the temptations of Satan, corruption began., and the earth and it's inhabitants have been degenerating ever since.

I'm not just speaking of the commandments alone, but also of the other guidelines issued throughout the Bible and related through the events and experiences it features. If God created all things, and created man, and God gave man guidelines, it is entirely plausible that men who broke away from God, could have maintained elements of those guidelines (possibly modified to better suit them - people are still doing that today). Christianity also recognizes the principle of the counterfeit - Satan counterfeits elements of God and His works to confuse and deceive people. So you may have things that sorta look like their from God, but they really aren't. Upon investigation, the differences may appear quite subtle, but are significant nonetheless.

Personally, when I read the Bible, I see words which are timeless and relevant to my life now. As mentioned previously, the element of prophecy really is what stamps it as God's word for me. The Bible speaks of things which are coming to pass right now, even though it was written so long ago. That's the thing that jumps out at me and says -"Yup, it's the real deal". I do believe that the word of God is error free. I also believe that people sometimes misinterpret the word of God, and there are individuals who may have intentionally perverted it for their own purpose. Which is why it is important to study the word, and to question it intellegently, rather than just accepting what someone else says. God encourages us to do that. Also, as a Christian, I pray before I embark upon my search for answers, and ask God to guide me.
There are prophecies in the Bible which have not yet been fulfilled. There are some which are being fulfilled now.

eg.

Daniel 12:4 (King James Version)

It says, in the last days, travel and knowledge will be increase dramatically.
That's happening now.

Luke 21:25-26 (King James Version)

Increased hurricane activity (think Florida this year), killer typhoons (in Asia), earthquakes, the threat of a killer tsunami which would wipe out the eastern seaboard of the US because a mountain on the other side of the world collapses (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/956280.stm). These things face us now.

Some people have real encounters with God, some make it up. The encounters that some people have may be with other spirits masquerading as God (there are fallen angels in league with Satan). If you know God, then identying the fake from the real is not a problem. If you don't know God, then you can be deceived more easily.

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"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." - Matthew 5 v11 KJV

Very waggish indeed.

If man was created perfect, why did he "yield to temptation"? A perfect man would have done the "right" thing. Didn't god know that he would have yielded (being omniscient)? Why didn't he create a man who wouldn't yield? Was he willing to create such a man, but unable (meaning he lacked omnipotence)? Or was he able but unwilling, and so doomed a countless number of men woman and children to suffering because of the mistake of two people? That's a pretty sadistic god!

The three other moral codes I referred to predate judeo-christianity. By your reasoning, it would be the judeo-christians who broke away.
Are you saying that your god would allow his nemesis to deceive billions of people (non-christian) and not do anything about it? Your god, being omniscient, would have known since the dawn of time that people would be deceived and, being omnipotent, could have easily either destroyed evil (satan) or made it so they wouldn't be deceived. He has done neither, which means either he isn't omnipotent or is sadistic and wants people to suffer in hell for being fooled by spirits he created.

Ok. Then who was Jospeh's father?

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

There are loads of other errors and inconsistencies in the 'error-free' book, which we can go into if you like. If the bible is the work of a perfect omnipotent god, why are there errors?

This has been happening as long as man has been around. Man's knowledge is always increasing. Hardly a prophecy.

I don't see anything in that quote about increased hurricane activity or killer typhoons or earthquakes or tsunami. What I do see is "for the powers of heaven shall be shaken". If your god is omnipotent, how can his powers be shaken?

God gave man free will to chose. He could have made us mindless robots, but He didn't.

Apparently they didn't. Man was perfect, until he made the wrong choice. The ability to chose in and of itself, is not an imperfection. It is the actual choices man makes, that may be imperfect.

It's quite likely He did.

He could have made a robot who would blindly obey His every command, but He chose instead to give man free will to chose God out of Love for Him.

Satan would have the whole universe believe that God is little more than a sadistic puppeteer who manipulates the wills of those He creates so that they worship Him, not by choice, but out of fear/compulsion etc. For this reason, man was created with free will, to chose or refuse God. If God had created man without free will, He would have been doing exactly what the devil acused Him of doing.

Despite man's choice to go against God, and face doom, God provided a way to redeem man. Hence Jesus coming to earth as a man, to pay the penalty for man's sins by dying on the cross - thus providing a way for man to be spared from the doom which sin would have condemned man to.

John 3:16 (King James Version)
So everybody has the opportunity to be saved provided they make that choice to accept salvation through Jesus.

John 17:3 (King James Version)
It's not God who dooms man. It is man who chooses to doom himself by rejecting God, from whom all life originates. Each individual will be held accountable for their choices and actions. Because one person makes a wrong choice, it doesn't mean that another person must do the same. In that regard, the fact that the first people made bad choices, does not doom the rest of humanity to do the same.

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"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." - Matthew 5 v11 KJV

Very waggish indeed.

So your all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present god lets spirits pretend to be him? So that they can fool the majority of the world into believing falsehoods and thereby be comdened to an everlasting hell? Ok then.

When God created man, He gave them guidelines to live by. The first humans predated any of those societies you mentioned, and in fact, these societies would likely have descended from the original humans. Hence it is not inconceivable to think that the guidelines handed down by God, would have influenced these codes setup by later civilizations.

God allows things to happen for a reason. His reasons may not be readily understood by men. However, He has provided man with a means of dealing with anything that they may face. He has given man His word so that man may know God's character and not be deceived. Man has the choice to accept it or not.

What do dictators usually do to people who oppose them? They usually eliminate them right? If God had simply eliminated those who opposed Him, or removed the possibility of deception (removed choice) from man, He would actually be doing exactly what the devil accused Him of doing - that is, being a dictator. That's not God. God allows the events on earth to unfold as they do, because He is giving people the chance to make the right choice. God will return when things have reached a point where all have made their choice and there is no turning back.

The concept of "hell" being a place of eternal torment, is not supported by scripture. This concept has been responsible for giving many the wrong impression, as you have expressed, about God's character. God does not wish for any to suffer. In the end, God will destroy sin. Those who hold on to sin, will perish with it. They will not be hanging around being tormented by anyone. Hell is an event, not a place.

Romans 6:23 (King James Version)
Revelation 20:9 (King James Version)

Psalm 37:20 (King James Version)
Have you ever heard the story about the monkey in the burning hut who had his hand stuck in a heavy jar because he was holding onto something that it wanted? The monkey would not let go of that thing, and his fist was to big to make it past the slender neck of the jar. So the monkey got burned up. If the monkey had let go of the object, it could have slipped out of the jar and escaped unhurt. But in the end, the monkey valued that object more than it's life. Such is the case of those who chose to hold on to sin. They have a choice to let it go, but they chose not to.

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"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." - Matthew 5 v11 KJV

Very waggish indeed.

This argument is fundamentally illogical. If man is perfect, he CANNOT make an imperfect choice.

Your god didn't have to creat mindless robots. All that was needed was to destroy satan. Or create a man that had more sense than to listen to a talking snake.

The only evidence you have provided for this claim is a book, written by man, that is full of errors and contradictions.

Really? Does this mean that you do not believe in the doctrine of original sin?
But you said:
So the inhhabitants of earth have been paying for the mythical Adam's choice.

Really?

ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

What did the children do?

I'm sorry, I didn't see this other verse.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Which one is it? This is the book you say is error-free? You need to provide some evidence of your god outside of and independent from the book of fables and contradictions.

Please correct me if i am wrong. Do you take all the stories in the bible literally? The garden of eden, noah's ark etc?

What kind of evidence would satisfy you?
What is the foundation of your beliefs, or absence of them?
I doubt there is very much I could say to convice you to change your beliefs, as you appear to be pretty set in your own. That is your choice, and your right.


The passage speaks of environmental and atmospheric upheavals. Earthquakes, hurricanes etc. would be manifestations that. In the English language, one word can have different meanings depending on the context. In this context, "heavens" is refering to the sky/atmosphere etc. rather than Heaven where God resides.
Yup.

I also recognize that there are things for which right now, I cannot explain, or fully understand. However, I do understand that for my salvation, I need to focus on ensuring that I live a life that is in keeping with the teachings of God, and that I develop a strong relationship with Him, so that when I am faced with challenges, I can overcome them, and endure on this earth until He returns. That's the key thing about God's word - the blueprint for salvation.

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"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." - Matthew 5 v11 KJV

Very waggish indeed.

Simple. Show me evidence of a god's existence that can stand up in a court of law. Please remember that this precludes faith-based evidence.

There is no evidence, as defined above, supporting the claims of theists. Therefore, I do not accept their claims.

There have always been, and there always will be earthquakes and hurricanes. Nations and empires have always and will always rise and fall. I predict that scores of people will die next year from natural disasters. I further predict that the mighty USA will one day topple. Neither these logical deductions nor your quote can be construed as prophecy in any way, shape or form.

If you take the bible literally as your god's word, how do you explain the errors and contradictions?