It didn't "suddenly stop". It's a process that happens over millions of years. You won't get up tomorrow and say "wow, we've evolved". Evolution is a scientific fact, supported by reams of empirical data, which is more than I can say for creationism.

no i wouldnt beleive in a pink unicorn.. cus it is not practical to my life. But yes.. i would believe in a God that you.. nor I can see physically. Because to me.. yes there is proof of his existence. Whether you see it or not Infidel is not my problem. And chyna.. evolution never stopped.. its still happens.. its just a very slow process.. and you can't expect to really see it.. only traces of it.

__________________
'there's a natural mystic blowing through the air
if you listen carefully now you will hear'



this could be the first trumpet,
might as well be the last

My life is full of debt. Watch as I repay my Karmic Debt.

Would you care to share that proof with us Yaadie? And by proof I mean:

1 a : the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact b : the process or an instance of establishing the validity of a statement especially by derivation from other statements in accordance with principles of reasoning.

Please include the definition of your god in your response.

this is what you don't understand.. and its not possible for anyone to explain. Its the same problem I had when I was a non believer. If you do not have the faith to believe.. then it doesn't matter if God is standing in your face and yelling at you.. here I am. You will not believe it. If i want to believe.. that when my mother came down with cancer, the reason for her still being with me to this day, is because of God... then that infidel, is MY PROOF. If I want to believe that when i flipped my car down a gully back in jamaica, and my car was completely trashed, but I came out without a scratch even with my lack of a seat belt.. as my proof.. den yute.. that is where I place my faith. God is a personal thing, as is religion and life itself. You choose not to believe.. so stop being so close minded.. and continue your lack of faith. But stop trying to show others your light. I will continue believing in God, because I, the one known as Yaadie, believe in God.. and yes, I have my own personal proof. If you don't have the faith King.. what good is that to you?

__________________
'there's a natural mystic blowing through the air
if you listen carefully now you will hear'



this could be the first trumpet,
might as well be the last

My life is full of debt. Watch as I repay my Karmic Debt.

By the way.. if i have seen the pink unicorn.. how can i prove it to you if i dont have the picture to prove it. I would believe in it.. cus i saw it.. that doesnt change your stance..?

__________________
'there's a natural mystic blowing through the air
if you listen carefully now you will hear'



this could be the first trumpet,
might as well be the last

My life is full of debt. Watch as I repay my Karmic Debt.

This is illogical. You are basically telling me that I should believe in something that noone can explain to me. Faith is defined as a "firm belief in something for which there is no proof" and therefore has no place in a logical, objective discussion about the proof of the existence of a god.

If your god is omnipotent and omniscient, then he could easily provide me with proof that he knows would convince me of his existence.

On the contrary, I consider myself quite open-minded. I'm open-minded enough not to blindly accept religious doctrine and to question the tenets of religion. I choose not to believe because of the lack of evidence of a god's existence. I am glad that your mother is still with you and that you were not hurt, but medical anamolies and surviving crashes are NOT evidence of a god.
What about Buddhists, Hindus and Muslims who have had similar experiences, does this prove that their god is real? Proof does not require faith. It stands on its own. If you have such proof, again, please share it with us.

You have not included your definition of your god.

How could you see it if it's invisible? And if it was visible, then someone would have to capture one, examine it, determine that it is in fact a new species of animal, and not a horse which has been painted pink and has had a horn stuck on. If it is determined that all this is so, by several different gruops of scientists, then yes, i will accept that a pink unicorn exists. Your uncorroborated, unsubstatiated evidence would be woefully inadequate.

Infidel.. it is obvious to me atleast this is not a conversation where I am trying to convince you to believe in God. Because I am not. I don't care what your definition of faith is. You remind me of a friend of mine here in jamaica... very close minded yute, believes so Highly in God, and he can't understand how people could not. He believes the proof is everywhere, in how the world is created, in the very science of our exisitence. That is his proof of God, and that is proof enough for him. But what he fails to understand is, people, as indiviuals see things their own way, with their own eyes, and their own mental scope. I never believed in God for most of my life, and myself and him would argue, but he would argue for me to be a believer, while i simply argued why i never beleived, not once trying to convince him out of his faith. As i am not trying to convince you to have faith, as others would. No one has asked you to see, or believe my proof. I have not asked you to sit down and take what I say as gospel. I have simply explained to you, what my proof is. Who knows, maybe my friend is right, maybe the real proof is really in the science of everything.. as science does seem to hold all the answers, and maybe one day science will finally PROVE the existence of God.. or prove to us God is but a figment of the catholic imagination. Who knows, but you tell me this... if right now, the top scientist around the world came out and said... we have hard proof that God does exist.. that we can show you with this genetic make-up, and the way life itself is designed that he is real... would you then throw yourself blindly into it.. for all you know they could be lying.... TO believe in God, is to be able to sit and tell yourself, I have faith in this higher being I can not see. It is to say, I have my reasons for doing this with my life, I want to put my soul, my life, my existence in his arms. And not have to ask why.. thats it.

__________________
'there's a natural mystic blowing through the air
if you listen carefully now you will hear'



this could be the first trumpet,
might as well be the last

My life is full of debt. Watch as I repay my Karmic Debt.

It has nothing to do with "throwing yourself blindly". You go where the evidence points. If one scientist proclaimed that he had proof, no, I wouldn't believe him, not until his proof had been examined by his peers and found to be substantive.

That, my friend, is throwing yourself blindly.
I'm not trying to convince you not to believe. I'm asking what the logical basis is for your belief. And it's not my deifintion of faith, it's the dictionary's.

You still haven't given me your definition of your god.

Here is what your not understanding. Simply put... not everything is.. or CAN be seen. Why was a bird created to fly? Why have humans been put on this planet, with as many abilities that we have to be the dominant species? Why do I believ in God? and What is my definition of my God? That question alone shows your not listening to me.. or you are, and not taking it in. What does it matter what my definition is? Are you looking for a reason to believe Infidel? Are you looking for me to tell you some inferiour reason for why I believe? Because I was in your shoes, and I know what your response will be... or the general direction it will point in. Stop asking me WHY I BELIEVE.. it doesnt matter why anyone believes. No one should have to justify something like that in their life. Its personal to them, God is a very personal thing to people. I was an OPEN athesist in an OPEN catholic family, and ANTI catholic family. Not one person in my family did not believe, and in fact i was a catholic academy for many years as a non believer. And one thing i learnt from such exposer is, as I have said again over and over in this thread.. there is no solid proof of God. NONE.. its all up to what you want to take as proof. Tell me this infidel, and don't think twice about the answer. Honestly tell me how you think this all came to be. What gave us the ability to live and breathe? What gave us the intellicutual ability to sit here, and have this conversation? How did life start? What started that life process, and the evolution process. Something had to put it in motion, don't you think? There is.. and will never be ANY proof, ever, of what did all that. We can come up with our own theories... but a theory is not fact, it is just that, someones opinion based on what they have found. So here, for you infidel, this is what I will give you. My theory is that God exists, based on what the facts and data I have gather'd through out my life thus far. I will put my faith in my theory, as many people in life do. Why? Because I believe in my theory, but remember, this is my theory, not your own, and no one has asked you to take faith in my theory. Plain and simple

__________________
'there's a natural mystic blowing through the air
if you listen carefully now you will hear'



this could be the first trumpet,
might as well be the last

My life is full of debt. Watch as I repay my Karmic Debt.

Your (or rather your religion's) definition of a god matters a great deal, as it is impossible to have a rational discussion about a god and someone's belief therein without defining the object of discussion.

I'm not asking you to justify anything. You made an assertion of your belief in something, and all I asked you to do was tell me what supporting data you have in regards to that thing. Because it's personal it's forbidden to discuss it?

There seems to be no point to continuing this discussion since:

1. We both agree that there is no solid proof of a god.

2. You are unwilling or unable to enter into a rational discussion about the basis for your belief in a god, despite there being no solid proof, since "noone should have to justify something like that in their life."

Here's why I believe there is a God.

When I look around me, and I see animals, trees etc. and think about all the complexity that exists in every living being, the various systems that support life, the way these systems interact with each other, and the way in which each living creature interacts with the environmental system in which it lives, I see design that could only come from a being of superior intelligence and power.

I have been trained in the sciences, and I know design when I see it. It is illogical to believe that the complexities and intricacies that exist in living beings could have just happened the way they do, by some random chance occurance. The whole concept of logic itself speaks to order, planning and design. These are created constructs, not accidental.

Christianity teaches that God invites us to "prove Him". That is, trust in Him and see for ourselves where He delivers on His word. The guidelines for living outlined by God in His word, has improved the quality of life of those who follow it (not just speaking about material things, but also to other aspects). For some, having this "blueprint" for a better life, is proof enough that there is a God.

In God's word, the Bible, God uses prophecy as a means of establishing His credibility. He reveals events that are to come some time before they occur, then before they happen, He sends prophets to warn and remind the people of what is to happen. Then it happens.

Then there are those personal encounters with God where he actually intervenes in peoples lives and makes His presence felt. These are special. Some call such experiences miraculous. It could be a dramatic event, or a subtle one. The impact is usually just as profound either way. If you've had one of those experiences, you know there's a God.

There's plenty of evidence of God's existence out there. The question is are we willing to accept it? Are we willing to believe it? Are we willing to see it?

__________________
"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." - Matthew 5 v11 KJV

Very waggish indeed.

bountyx: Before I respond to your post in full, can you give me your, or your religion's definiton of god?

Ok...lemme give it a shot...

God: Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent being who created the universe and rules it.

__________________
"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." - Matthew 5 v11 KJV

Very waggish indeed.

Thank you bountyx.
Here are some questions for you:

If an all-powerful god created everything, why are there flaws in the design? The human eye, for example, takes an image, turns it upside down then sends it to the brain to be processed and turned right side up. What about cancer, which is the uncontrolled growth of cells?

I am assuming that you are referring to the ten commandments and their derivatives. This moral code is not unique to Judeo-Christianity. Hammurabi, Solon the Athenian and the Egyptian book of the dead, just to name a few, all have very similar guidlines. Does this mean that the gods worshipped by those societies existed?
How do you know that the bible is god's word? Do you believe in biblical inerrancy? If so, then why are there inconsistencies and errors in the bible? If not, then can something imperfect be the work of a perfect god? Having the prophecy and the fulfillment of the prophecy in the same book isn't very credible either.


What about Hindus, Muslims and people of other faiths who also claim to have had personal encounters with thier god(s)? Does this make their god(s) real?

AND, written by man! Good points, Infidel.