...some thing is wrong here... and whatever happened to Genesis chapter 2 and 3? I did read both chapters in their entirety, and my comment was that I found nothing to say that God had Lied... You find God the liar? forgot these other posts?

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...and as life's short journey continues...every little thing is gonna be alright.

[quote=frankster]...and again God lies, according to you...let us see.

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...and as life's short journey continues...every little thing is gonna be alright.

...and thou sayest that God is THE LIAR...nuff said...God says to pray for you my brother...HE STILL LOVE'S YOU.

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...and as life's short journey continues...every little thing is gonna be alright.

So you are indeed following maverick , then why not comment on the scriptures given , I note you still have refuse .

yes these quotes belong to me
It is not me calling God a liar !
and
I find God the liar .

Let me clarify , what I meant was that it is not on my authority alone why I say God is a liar , for I find him so in the story of Eden and so says the writer of the book of Kings , in recording the word of God , puts it as his own admission . In effect the last quote should have read " it is not me alone calling him a liar"
I am big enuff to response to your post and do apologise for the misunderstanding cause by my neglecting to proofread , can you response to the verses ?

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All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing

[quote=D-Rock]Nuff respect D-ROCK

It is important to note that God was a part of a lie , a conspiracy of sorts .
Does his participation makes him a liar ?
Remember to delude ,decieve or trick is a lie how then do you respond to 2Thes 2:11 .

respect

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All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing

Love sista Princessblack

God destroys as much if not more than the devil , just read the life of Joshua , all he does it tag you as a minion of the devil , and you are ripe for destruction .

If his own admission that he is(in 1Kings 22:22) , is not enuff then I have none !!!

If The above scriptural passages are not enuff for you sista , then maybe if I prove that created evil , would that help to buttress uunbelief

The case of the serpent lieing a will deal with later as a reply to maverick re-questioning me about said issue .

I have long since stop being afraid of those who would try to scare me into silence . There is no much things about the bible that people just do not know , I am beginning to realize that many would rather not know .

love sista PBlack

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All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing

Mavrick

Ok . although you have refuse to come to turns with God being a man and a liar , as I have proven by the 3 verses I have submitted for your observation and inspection . I will now continue with my stated thread title .

God stated in his edict is Verse 17 of chapter 2

And now the Serpents promise chapter 3:4-5

What is important here is the term in the day for it denotes a sense of immediacy , as in how when the ate the fruit , their eyes were not open 400 yrs later , but almost immediatly .
It is my contention that surely is used for emphasis as in a certainty ,and not connotation of eventuality .

The next argument is that man was supposed to live forever . Now I do not agree with Paul reasoning here but he it seems did not hold that the physical body was ever made to last forever (1cor 15:44-50) .
My arguments are based on the fact that there were two trees in the garden , of which the other was the Tree of Life(Gen 2:9) . It is my argument that both Trees represented abilities which man did not possess and God did not want man to possess . Hence the reason for his prohibition against its consumption .
Upon till this point Man was the image and likeness of God , much like how a monkey maybe consider is in our image and likeness . An image and likeness is not the same as the thing it reflects .
All this change when man eat the fruit , for out of the mouth comes Gods own confession to this fact Gen 3:22
If he was meant to live for ever God would not have to say this or stop him from eating of the tree of life . For if he had eternal life already then where is it stated , that it was taken from Man , instead we see Man being denied access to get eternal life . Which means he never had nor was it given .Wether Eve and Adam ate the fruit or not Man was going to surely die .
Also important is to note , for all those who are awaiting their blessed eternal life , is that it is God and not the Serpent who is and has denied us eternal life .
So all in all the Serpent has told the truth , It was God who has misled .

respect

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All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing

Now we can reason...no need to apologize, you have clearly vindicated yourself.

Gen 2:9 And out of the ground Jehovah God caused to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food. The tree of life also was in the middle of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. - (God identifies both tree to the man.)
Gen 2:15 And Jehovah God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.
Gen 2:16 And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, You may freely eat of every tree in the garden,(Including the tree of LIFE.)
Gen 2:17 but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. (they did die spiritually.)
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more cunning (clever at decieving people - oxford pocket dictionary)than any beast of the field which Jehovah God had made. And he said to the woman, Is it so that God has said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?(God did not say every tree only 1 - as Eve later pointed out to satan...his first attempt at decieving Eve.)
Gen 3:2 And the woman said to the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden.
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.(God did not say that they could not touch the fruit...He said that they should not eat it.)
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die,
Gen 3:5 for God knows that in the day you eat of it, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

(God had already told them that eating the tree of knowledge would mean death - eternal death, and not a physical death. Gen.2 -17) God is spirit, and His words are spirit and truth.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasing to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make wise, she took of its fruit, and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.(After satan HAD convincinly decieved Eve.)
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of both of them were opened. And they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made girdles for themselves.

Gen 3:9 And Jehovah God called to Adam and said to him, Where are you?
Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I am naked, and I hid myself.
Gen 3:11 And He said, Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree which I commanded you that you should not eat?
Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.

Gen 3:13 And Jehovah God said to the woman, What is this you have done? And the woman said, The serpent deceived me, and I ate.

Clearly,satan was not the one speaking the truth here...he knew what God meant when God told Adam that he would die If he ate the fruit, Adam understood what death meant in the physical sence, not the spiritual as yet -and as God deals with every earthly matter according to our time and our knowledgeof issues and things, in due time as Adam increased in knowledge God would have taught him (Adam) about dying in the spiritual sence.

On Image..
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.
Gen 1:27 And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply and fill the earth, and subdue it. And have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heavens, and all animals that move upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold! I have given you every herb seeding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree seeding seed; to you it shall be for food.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the heavens, and to every creeper on the earth which has in it a living soul every green plant is for food; and it was so.

Not only did God create man in His own Image (the appearance of something as seen in a mirror or through a lens ect. Oxford Dict.) but He also gave us full control of the earth and a free will...Amen. Later my friend.

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...and as life's short journey continues...every little thing is gonna be alright.

[quote=D-Rock]thank you very much!!!! nuff said here

Mavrick

the strenght of your argument rest on the two premise
1. The fact that God did not specifically prohibit eating of the tree of life .
2. And your claim that they died spiritually .

The pretext to deception

First it is said communication is 90% unspoken , Eve understood God commands to mean , not to eat of the tree in the midst of the garden , of which there is two . She Eve was proven right as God later verified this to be true by his placing an armed sentinel around it .
As punishment for this act God , cursed man that" in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread " but was this any surprise he put man there to tend to Eden in the first place , so it is obvious that this is what was expected .
So what we have here is a delusion ,spark but a contrived misunderstanding , to which God is the architect . In short a lie mixed with confusion and truth .

Another delusion

Can the Spirit die ?
Can the body live on without the spirit ?
Is the Spirit and the breath of life not the same ?
There is no mention that their death would be spiritual , how then do you arrive at that conclusion ? when one speaks of death it is often understood to mean physical death .

The rest of your arguments have to do with prejudicial stereotyping of the Serpent .

The Divine Lie Is
What is important is that they never died in the day but instead several hundred years later . So to tie the apple to their demise is not just preposterous it is ridiculous . Nor was it a Spiritual death , as The body cannot continue on with the spirit .

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All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing

Afri-gal

do not celebrate just yet read 2 Thess 2:11 , and tell me what you think , of a God who deludes ?

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All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing

1.Frankster, I work in the fields of electronics and telecommunications ,and I know of 2 usual ways to clearly communicate important messages or ones verbal intentions so as to avoid misunderstandings, 1.The spoken word, 2. the written word...this is how the dictionary defines communication: the act of communicating; exchange of ideas, convayance of information ect. 2 that which is communicated as a letter or message. (Websters Dict.)

2.The fact is - Eve had full knowledge (even though God did not speak directly to Eve concerning the tree of knowledge, her husband told her what God had said.) of which tree not to eat of...Gen.3 v 2 clearly shows this.

3."Tending the garden" is a far different thing from hard lodour,toil,and tiresome crippiling work...Adam did not have to do any of this before his fall...in fact his tending of the garden was not for work only but also for recreational pourposes.

4. God was not then and is not now the author of misunderstandings.

5. No,the spirit cannot die.
6. No, the body cannot live without the spirit.
7. Yes, the spirit and the breath of life are the same.

It was not "the apple" that caused their demise...It was their disobedience of God' command.
Now... this is my summary on the subject, hope it is not too long and that you will read it...the rest of your arguments are answered in my summary. N.B. The following is posted from some of my research notes on a book that I am still writing entitled- Our Father's Love.

Some test must be given a free moral agent by which his determination either to obey or disobey God may be shown, and it pleased God, for reasons He has not been pleased to entirely reveal, to select this test. It was an easy one in the light of Adam's condition of sinless-ness and the bountiful privileges otherwise bestowed upon him. "The forbidden tree was doubtless called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because through the eating of it mankind came to the experience of the value of goodness and of the infinite evil of sin. The phrase "Thou shalt surely die" is translated a little differently in the margin.

The nature of this death was two-fold. It was a spiritual death, for "in the day" Adam ate thereof he was cast out from the garden and cut off from the communion with God theretofore enjoyed. It was physical death, for in the end Adam returned unto the dust whence he was formed. It would seem from the ensuing record that it was his exclusion from "the tree of life in the midst of the garden which ultimately resulted in death.”It seems to have existed to confer the gift of immortality, perhaps to counteract sickness, repel bodily ills of every kind, and keep the springs of activity and enjoyment preserved in abounding fullness."


The Bona Fide Liar.
The person tempted was the woman: it was Satan's policy to enter into talk with her when she was alone. There are many temptations to which being alone gives great advantage; but the communion of saints tends very much to their strength and safety. Satan took advantage by finding her near the forbidden tree. They that would not eat the forbidden fruit must not come near the forbidden tree. Satan tempted Eve that by her he might tempt Adam.
It is his policy to send temptations by hands we do not suspect, and by those that have most influence upon us. Satan questioned whether it were a sin or not, to eat of this tree. He did not disclose his design at first, but he put a question which seemed innocent. Those who would be safe need to be shy of talking with the tempter. He quoted the command wrong. He spoke in a taunting way.
The devil, as he is a liar, so he is a scoffer from the beginning; and scoffers are his children. It is the craft of Satan to speak of the Divine law as uncertain or unreasonable, and so to draw people to sin; it is our wisdom to keep up a firm belief of God's command, and a high respect for it.

Has God said, ye shall not lie, nor take his name in vain, nor be drunk, and curse? Yes, I am sure he has, and it is well said; and by his grace I will abide by it.
It was Eve's weakness to enter into this talk with the serpent: she might have supposed by his question that he had no good design, and should therefore have started back.
Satan teaches men first to doubt, and then to deny. He promises her advantage from their eating this fruit.

He aims to make them discontented with their present state, as if it were not as good as it might be, and should be. No condition will of itself bring content, unless the mind is brought to it.
He tempts them to seek preferment, as if they were fit to be gods.
Satan ruined himself by desiring to be like the Most High; therefore he sought to infect our first parents with the same desire, that he might ruin them too.

And still the devil draws people into his interest, by suggesting to them hard thoughts of God, and false hopes of advantage by sin. Let us, therefore, always think well of God as the best good, and think ill of sin as the worst evil: thus let us resist the devil, and he will flee from us. May God richly bless you and yours my friend.

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...and as life's short journey continues...every little thing is gonna be alright.

That is true ! but any first yr psychology student will tell you what I stated above , that , communication is almost always 90% body language or tonal or contextual is also true .


How can you say this , when her response to the Serpents question shows her obvious confusion . Vs 3 brings this home in no uncertain manner .

The "tending" that you are describing is one in which man lives off the fat of the land(to borrow a biblical phrase). Like animals grazing ,or monkeys foraging .That is the present condition of most if not all animals as the have not eaten of the tree of knowledge . This is the condition Man would have been in , had he not learnt how to till the land , so he can plan and prepare for the future ,instead ofdepending capricious and unpredictable wiles of nature(God )

Pray tell where did Eve misunderstanding come from ? She said tree in the midst of the Garden , not trees .

Regardless ! they did not die immediatley.

If I or anyone or thing is in a position to test any other thing or individual then that thing or individual is not entirely free .
Morality is a purely place and time specific cultural opinion of what is right or wrong , and will change to reflect place , time and culture . It is far from absolute .
Is it immoral for me to cut or be cut by another human being ?
Is it immoral for a hungry lion to eat your child ?
Is it immoral for you to eat chicken ?


Please expound on that phrase if you have the time and patience ?

It was not a spiritual death , he was ex-communicated or expelled , in short his relationship with God has changed , but he is far from any form of death . All physical things return to their source and back again, this is a cycle of nature . If this is not the case then why does all physical creation suffers this fate , deserved only by man for his dis-obedience .
Yes ! but Eve was under the misunderstanding that eating from the tree in the midst of the garden was forbidden . So if he was running a test he did not set His experiment to adjust for such variables , hence the fault of the subjects failure is truly one of not setting proper controls . The test was contaminated , so the results are not true .


Most of Mans greatest inventions and scientific understanding comes to then when they are alone , or after a period of deep soliloquy and or solitude .


How can that be , he ask a question - is there such a thing as a wrong question ? (Leading yes but wrong No !) neither was his question leading .


Are you saying we are not question , the laws given us by our forebearers though they say they are of God for their reasonableness and certainty ?

Is it not by going thruogh the crucible of the furnace that we are made better and stronger . If we do not ask questions and share ideas how are we to express our socalled moral free agency ?
To doubt is the basis of knowledge and science .
The advantage of eating the fruit is that we no longer run arround like gorrilas, foraging and living in trees . They the gorillas are still living in paradise(Eden) .

Discontent is the father of invention , it was probable discontent that God was feeling when he first started creating .
God himself say we lack only eternal life , and we will be as he is Gen 3:22 .
It appears the Serpent desire was that all sentient beings should be equal - is that so wrong or evil ?

The hopes that the Serpent express to Eve were not false , as she and her consort eyes were open and they became as God knowing good and evil , neither did they die . The advantages are the comforts we enjoy today over our un-enlighten brothers and sister the animals .

May God bless you as well my friend , it was good and inform having this discussion with you . I have learnt much form you and hope to match opinions in the future on this and other related topics .



respect

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All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing

Just observing for now, but Just wanted to say how good and pleasant it is to see I & I bredrin (& sistren) reasoning in a civilised manner, without the accusations and venom that seems to creep into far too many of these discussions. Bless up to all.

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One Love, One Inity. In the Name of The Most High Jah Rastafari. Blessed.

Frankster, I can see that you are a good thinker, and that is admirable...however even though a lot of your arguments have logic to them we are also dealing with the spiritual here...a sence of revelation and deep honest thought must be applied when studing God - His ways are higher than ours.
I too apreciate your arguments and have learned much from you...how you coverse shows a hunger for the truth...May God grant you, as well as I, the treasured ability to carefully listen to all opinions, and gracefully correct each other as we seek this truth. Peace my Brother. (I will comment further on this topic later...)

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...and as life's short journey continues...every little thing is gonna be alright.