my participation in this forum is not wacko nonsence-- I am showing reasons for the problems.

You seem to believe that if everyone had good 'morals' everything would be alright. Well dearie, I have news for you; Your definition of morality can be very different from other people's. what then do you do?
There are rules and guidlines in place for people to follow but are the rules being even followed by the very politicians who put them in place?
Have you heard the latest scandal? Can you say pork-barrell politics?
Why aren't the rules being followed by the ordinary man on the street?
Answer: It is easier and more beneficial to break the rules than to follow them.
What you should examine is why the above is true instead of condemning people for lack of morals. Why is it easy to run an illegal robot taxi than to do a be gainfully employed? Because there are no jobs! Why is it easier to run a robot taxi instead of acquiering(sp) legal licences? Because the govt only issue certain amount of licences each year meanwhile people need to go about their business and unemployed men need to earn a living.
whether or not the persons taking the robots or the persons operating the robots are moral is neither here nor there. basic survival is what dictates living.

Fact is a bunch of pompous people in Jamaica have been having these various prayer vigils for years and the crime keeps getting worse. how are these prayer-breakfasts(as they are called) helping? All that's happening is that some people are getting media attention.
When 27 people were slaughtered in west kingston like dogs by the police some years ago, not a single word was uttered by these bastians of morality. not a single sentence in condemnation of the police activity.

I dont know where you are talking if you think that most of the people committing violent crimes are wealthy. Not Jamaica!

what is needed is fundamental, systematic and political change-- not more of the same empty phrases and platitudes from bigheaded farts.

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who am I? ME who the hell did you think?

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You said:
You then proceded to "say your piece" and show what you feel are the reasons for the problems - just as the people you condemn as spouting "wacko nonsense" have done and continue to do. All I did was point that out. My intent was not to imply that your participation is "wacko nonsense", I don't belive it is.

Therin lies the real problem. Some people see nothing "immoral" with robbing and killing. You tell me now, if you pave the streets with gold, and give everybody everything they need, all the basic necessities etc. and they still see nothing wrong with taking what they want from anybody, or hurting people who get in their way, or who they don't like, then will there still be crime? Yes there will.

So you have pointed to the lack of recognition of a universally accepted moral standard as being a significant factor in influencing crime. I propose that if everyone acknowledged and lived by such a standard, which would incorporate such things as (but not limited to):

- not hurting others
- treating people fairly
- being honest and truthful
- being caring and compassionate towards others
- being unselfish

then the whole world, not just Jamaica, would be a much better place, and there would be no crime. Whether people can actually achieve this in and of themselves is a whole other argument, but recognize that no amount of money, politics, or fire-brand opinions are going to make the kind of change necessary unless those fundamental human behaviour and lifestyle issues are addressed.

And the irony is that those who feel that way, do not realize the long term impact of what they do to have things easy in the short term.

I have condemned no one. Read what I have posted again.

So would it help if those in power had good enough morals to recognize when legislation needs to be adjusted to ease the suffering of the people? No matter the scenario, it still boils down to choice to recognize what is right and do it, or take the "easy" way out and do nothing, or do wrong. The issue is still "morals".

Sure there are those seeking media attention, and there are also people who are genuinely concerned, frustrated, scared, and seeking hope. So they pray for change, they pray for comfort, they pray for deliverance. That is their right. Crime and all wrong doing is a moral issue. The purpose of the Church is to spiritually and morally guide people, and to help strengthen their relationship with God. Those who pray in earnest are doing what they are supposed to do. The hope is, that by those activities, the hearts and lives of those commiting crimes will be touched such that they make the decision to stop commiting crimes and make a positive change in their lives. And when I speak of crimes, I speak not only of the robbery etc. but of those crimes which don't get any attention too, like those commited by the "big wigs" and such.

Balderdash!

People in their homes, in their churches, in their workplaces, in their schools, on the radio, on the TV, on the Internet are voicing their condemnation of the sensless acts of crime committed by all kinds of people in Jamaica. You don't see or hear everything the media puts out. You don't attend all the rallies and functions where people speak out publicly. You simply have no foundation or basis from which to make such an arbitrary and inaccurate statement.

Some people love to rake the Church and people who pray etc. over the coals when they speak out against injustice and immorality. Yet these same naysayers are also quick to condemn said Church and people of faith, when they feel that "the Church isn't doing enough" or "those prayer people never said anything about that". Well the truth is, that people aren't listening when the Church speaks. That's why you hear nothing.

Who pays for the contract killings? How much money do you think the "dons" have? Did you know they found over JA$18 million in different currencies in a vault in a house owned by Zekes the "don" of Matthews Lane who is now charged with a double murder?

I never said most crimes were commited by rich people, I said many crimes were committed by people who lack nothing materially. I never specified violent crimes either, I said crimes generally.

FYAH FI POLYTRICKS!


Political change is not going to stop crime. Politics instigates many crimes. In Jamaica, both political parties have their hands dirty. So how is changing one going to stop crime? It's neither here nor there, they're all the same.

Crime will continue until people wake up and realize that no politics, or money, or anything man made or driven will solve crime. If people are not morally concious enough to make right decisions as opposed wrong ones, people will always be doing bad things.

You need to look into what, or Who can help you to make right decisions.

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"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." - Matthew 5 v11 KJV

Very waggish indeed.

wow! you are a pie in the sky, perfumy-talk, dreamer if you think that mere moods and attitudes will bring forth any better with ACTUAL systematic changes.

Are you an artist?

The politics controls everything and everything is inter-related. divorcing the that which dictates how things run from actualities on the ground is not facing reality and believing in fairytales.
I left Jamaica only late last year and I had lived there all of 26 years, so I paid attention to causes and effects instead of mere symtoms, such as crime, and how to treat them.

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who am I? ME who the hell did you think?

Moods and attitudes are more significant than you or other people want to acknowledge. The systematic changes you dream of will never happen if the moods and attitudes of those in power and those on the ground are not sufficiently alligned, and oriented toward more positive and just ideals. But I'm no dreamer, I'm a realist.

I'm a scientist.

I never denied that things are inter-related. You are looking at the system and failing to realize that the system is made up of people, individuals. Individuals make decisions which impact the system. They can make decisions that impact the system positively or negatively. Their choices control how the system works. Their moods, attitudes and moral inclinations affect the choices they make. So if you can align peoples moods attitudes and moral inclinations toward a common positive goal, then you can make the kind of positive changes needed to correct a messed up system.

I live in Jamaica, and have been doing so longer than you've been alive.

You must really be a zealous, die-hearted, fingers-in-the-air, bell ringing, slogan-singing, T-shirt wearer if you really think that a mere change in politics is going to bring forth anything better with ACTUAL individual changes which really affect crime.

Are you a political activist?

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"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." - Matthew 5 v11 KJV

Very waggish indeed.

no dearie, I'm no zealous idiot. I vote for the better possibility. but you soun pnp-ish...
u soun like you woulda see di ting infronta u face, know betta, but becaws a who dem is- talk bout feelings, morals and attitude.
admit up to reality man. no, u naw talk like a realist star, u naw talk like one at all.

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who am I? ME who the hell did you think?

LOL. No dearie, I support non of them. They're all the same. They both have their hands dirty, and they both trick and exploit the people who put them in power.

An yuh soun' like seh yuh woulda dash weh yuh morals an adopt any attitude weh woulda help tun Gordon House green.

Reality is that some people a yaard tyad a di poly-tricks an' di poly-ticks, an' yuh clearly ah nuh wan a dem.

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"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." - Matthew 5 v11 KJV

Very waggish indeed.

how u explain dah one deh?

if me a advocate systematic political change where the rule of law has to be obeyed by politicians, where there are checks and balances and where the ordinary man sees the law as something that benefits him instead of keeping him down.
I did not say anything about being green, but if the green party agrees with those objectives then by all means, I welcome them.

my morals sound, my youth. me naw try push my morality dung a soul chroat-- jussa analyse the reasons why Jamaica find itself inna dem yah effries yah.

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who am I? ME who the hell did you think?

I have no problem with such changes taking place. All I'm saying is that I don't have much confidence in that happening. Checks and balances are ultimately based on peoples integrity. If they have none, the checks and balances will fail. So for those changes you spoke of, which are good ones, to work, you will need to have the assurance that people's integrity is, and will remain, intact.

I'd want more than them just agreeing to something like that though. Politicians will agree to anything just to get into power. I'd want the assurance that they will follow through. I just don't believe that they can or will do that.

It's all good mi dear. Nobody naw force anyting 'pon anybody. There's no easy answer to Jamaica's problems. All a wi jus' a try mek sense outa nonsense.

Respec'

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"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." - Matthew 5 v11 KJV

Very waggish indeed.

me an u haffi agree fi disagree pon dis one, caw me noh see how one can depend on people and dem emotions instead a rules, laws and systems whey people haffi follow whedda dem morally inclined or not.

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who am I? ME who the hell did you think?

We are really just looking at 2 aspects of the solution. One is just the pre-requisite of the other. How will you ensure that people follow rules and laws? People will be the enforcers. How will you ensure that those with the responsibility of enforcing and administering the rules and the system, are doing what they are supposed to do, and are not corrupt? That's where the whole thing of morals and values come in. You'd have to ensure that those who are part of the system are not corrupt - they must have good morals and values and integrity. If those are qualities that are lacking in the society, then your task of building that new system becomes that much harder because it will be more difficult to find integrous people to be a part of the system.

We can agree to disagree, but I think we're generally heading down the same direction.

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"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." - Matthew 5 v11 KJV

Very waggish indeed.