Enforced Celibabcy..Should it be abolished? - Page 4 - Jamaica Talk

JASpice · #46 (**permalink**) 06-02-2009, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex4Ja

I mean no disrespect to the Catholic church or Catholic faith meant but...based on the most recent scandals, are the priest knowingly and willfully giving there entire life...every second... to God?

Sorry but I dont believe that even those who are not guilty of those vices are anymore dedicated than a husband who consumes his energy into his work or a non-Catholic priest who gives all his time to the pastoral duties.

The Bible tells us that we should do nothing to the extreme..nothing.

LOL... NO they aren't!!! And that is why I think priest should be able to marry.

But I disagree with you on believeing that no one is capable of giving their life completely to God with no need of companionship out of marriage. And not only are there those who want and do give flly...to them it's not extreme. They are married to the church and to them it is a calling from God.

FOr example... Augustine of Hippo... he was a pagan that converted and willfully wanted and did give his life to the church. He wrote about his journey, which is rather fascinating.

JASpice · #47 (**permalink**) 06-02-2009, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Rasta

how different was he than any other "priest" that took and oath and broke it..(with little alter boys)...they are allowed to retain their jobs (they just get transfered) wheres this man was REMOVED from service...

whats THAT about?

and you keep saying that Christ was not married. The reason was he did not get married cuz he knew he would die! why would he marry and leave a family?

It's not different. And this man left...was not removed. He had intentions already to convert... it just turned into a media scandal.

As for all the priests that commited a sin against their holy order..they all lose their sacramental rights. It does not banish them from their religion.

How did you know that Christ didnt marry cause he knew he was going to die?? Did I miss that quote of scripture???

And why would any of us marry knowing that we ALL will also die someday??

Lady Rasta · #48 (**permalink**) 06-02-2009, 03:50 PM

you dont think Chirst knew his purpose in coming (being born) to this earth?

i believe catholics agree with the Trinity. so in that respect, Christ being God...do you think He did not know his fate?

and i coulda sworn i read where the preist was removed from service. but i could be wrong!

JASpice · #49 (**permalink**) 06-02-2009, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Rasta

you dont think Chirst knew his purpose in coming (being born) to this earth?

i believe catholics agree with the Trinity. so in that respect, Christ being God...do you think He did not know his fate?

and i coulda sworn i read where the preist was removed from service. but i could be wrong!

The priest requested a leave of absence from the active ministry. Then he made an announcement of going to the Episcopal church. Because of that, he was let go per se. Here is the official statement on the situation:

The Archdiocese of Miami

Pretty much was the priest decision.

As for Christ, I do not know what he thought...I could only speculate. I do believe the Lord revealed to him his fate as he was on his journey. I do not believe he knew it all at birth.

He had his calling as others have theirs. Of course his was and is above all for he is the son of God. I do not believe he did not marry because he was going to die. I do however believe he did not marry because it was not his calling, it was not in God's plans as it may not be in the plans for us regular humans.

God has a will for all... and it's wrong for us to generalize and say that everyone is put on this earth to procreate.

When you follow your calling to God...it is a choice and a choice that should be accepted by all and not judged.

Alex4Ja · #50 (**permalink**) 06-02-2009, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JASpice

LOL... NO they aren't!!! And that is why I think priest should be able to marry.

But I disagree with you on believeing that no one is capable of giving their life completely to God with no need of companionship out of marriage. And not only are there those who want and do give flly...to them it's not extreme. They are married to the church and to them it is a calling from God.

FOr example... Augustine of Hippo... he was a pagan that converted and willfully wanted and did give his life to the church. He wrote about his journey, which is rather fascinating.

If you can show me where i said that, I'll take you to dinner...and a movie.

JASpice · #51 (**permalink**) 06-02-2009, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex4Ja

If you can show me where i said that, I'll take you to dinner...and a movie.

my mistake.

I misread this:

"Sorry but I dont believe that even those who are not guilty of those vices are anymore dedicated than a husband who consumes his energy into his work or a non-Catholic priest who gives all his time to the pastoral duties."

BUT we could reword it!!!

TraceeBaby · #52 (**permalink**) 06-02-2009, 11:19 PM

I could be missing something, but some of the statements made it seem like priests are "more holy" in some way than say other church leaders (e.g., Baptist pastors). I'm just not sure why enforcing a vow of celibacy is necessary. Christ CHOSE to be celibate, he wasn't made to be celibate. So if a priest (or any other church leader) chooses to be celibate than great, but why is it required?

What's more, in my experiences, the priests that I've been acquainted with were no more Christ-like in thier actions than the pastors (who happened to be married) were.

I DO think that it's important for church leaders who choose NOT to be celibate to select a partner who is supportive and enables them to do the work of Christ and the Church.

JASpice · #53 (**permalink**) 06-02-2009, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TraceeBaby

I could be missing something, but some of the statements made it seem like priests are "more holy" in some way than say other church leaders (e.g., Baptist pastors).

That's because it's how you percieve the statements and opinions are based on experiences.

They are not any holier then another church. It's just in the beliefs that the catholic church has. Nothing is forced about it.

It's like joining a credit union.... you have to belong to some sort of group.

or

It's like becoming the president of the U.S. ... you have to swear in a whole bunch of stuff.

BTW...... The catholic church is not the only religion that has such requirements.

TraceeBaby · #54 (**permalink**) 06-03-2009, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JASpice

That's because it's how you percieve the statements and opinions are based on experiences.

They are not any holier then another church. It's just in the beliefs that the catholic church has.

What do you mean by this? I know that it is because it's how I perceived the statements - that's why I was asking for clarification. So I could make sure my perception was what people meant by the statement. Let me try to be more clear than I was originally:

What I was referring to were the comments where people listed all the things that priests do, or mentioned that having a spouse may make it harder to do God's work, and I was trying to say that church leaders (in many religions) do a lot of the same things that Catholic Priests do (e.g., ministering to those who have lost faith, running ministries within the church, visiting the ill/dying, performing weddings and funerals, etc.) and don't need to be celibate to do so. I'm not trying to diminish the role of priests, just saying that being celibate/unmarried isn't a requirement to be an extraordinary person.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JASpice

Nothing is forced about it.

I do not profess to be an expert in Catholicism (or other religions), but I thought that being celibate was a requirement of being a Priest. You say nothing is forced about it, so perhaps I am mistaken, but I've never met a priest in the Catholic Church who was permitted to take a wife. Perhaps "forced" is too strong a word - what I meant is simply that it is not permitted for priests.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JASpice

BTW...... The catholic church is not the only religion that has such requirements.

Yes, I understand. I was just discussing this in the context of what I have experienced first hand (Catholic, Baptist, and Methodist).

Are the other religions you reference Christian (i.e., do they take a vow a celibacy because Christ was celibate)? Or do they have other reasons for their vow of celibacy?

TraceeBaby · #55 (**permalink**) 06-03-2009, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JASpice

My priest here in Utah runs and operates 3 churches, well over a thousand parishioners. He conducts approx. 10 masses every week. ALong with that he also holds sacramental services such as marriages and baptisms. Lets not forget about the funerals! He also heads up all the ministries, sits on the interfaith council, is a spiritual counselor to any of the thousands that would like to visit with him, is active with the community, and advocate for the poor and hungry. The list goes on and on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash_113

I think a wife and kids..even if the wife is supportive and loving and Christlikes...it can sometimes cloud judgment with natural concerns, and it leaves less time to be available for the things God calls you to do.

These were the specific statements I was referring to. I should have included them in my previous post - my apologies for the confusion.

My point was simply that in the first post, it seems to imply that church leaders in other religions don't do the same things, when I know that my pastor does all the things you've listed (though I think it's only 2 churches)...and his wife is frequently right there by his side in situations where she can be (e.g., advocating for the poor and hungry), and often in the pews at church during the other things (e.g., baptisms).

In the second post, while I agree with the spirit of it, I was just making the point that with the right partner, all these things are possible.

Mrs. Groovy 144 · #56 (**permalink**) 06-03-2009, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JASpice

HIstory of Priesthood in the Catholic Church and the reason for celibancy goes way back to what the ancient Jewish priesthood was about. The priests of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem were required to abstain from sexual contact (in order to achieve ritual purity) for a brief period prior to the periodic performance of the sacrifices of the temple, so several areas of the Early Church priests were required, by ecclesiastical law, to abstain from sexual contact.

The vow of celibacy, along with vows of poverty and obedience, are done in order to imitate the life of Christ. They are willingly giving there life over to Chirst, wanting to serve fully. The Catholic church does not enforce nor needs to enforce, they just recognize what it takes to do the work of Christ and therefore have set rules for ordination that enable the priests to do what they believe God has chosen them to do.

Could you imagine being married to a priest that has the demands that is imposed on them...they serve God 24 hours a day..it's their calling.

My priest here in Utah runs and operates 3 churches, well over a thousand parishioners. He conducts approx. 10 masses every week. ALong with that he also holds sacramental services such as marriages and baptisms. Lets not forget about the funerals! He also heads up all the ministries, sits on the interfaith council, is a spiritual counselor to any of the thousands that would like to visit with him, is active with the community, and advocate for the poor and hungry. The list goes on and on.

If married to a "catholic" priest, you would never see them. Quite honestly, I would feel neglected if ever put in such position.

I have to say that alot of times we read the old testament and the jewish laws and we take it to the extreme.

1Tim 4:1-3, says that in the latter times people will be following seducing spirits, which will cause them to forbid(deny, withhold, hinder) peolpe from getting married, abstain from meats, etc.

The priests in the Old testament WERE married, but it was only for a period of time they would consecrate themselves, but this would also go for the people who were NOT of the priesthood as well.

Paul wrote in his letters that he would that all men were as he was, which is unmarried, but he understood that not everyone had that gift, So he encouraged them to marry, and that it was not a sin if they did.

Everyone believes that catholic priests are not allowed to marry, reason being that to me they stress the fact that being unmarried makes it easier to do God's work...but mind you, taking care of your family is also God's work.

And if a man WAS married, and became a priest, since you say that they can be married and still hold the priesthood, wouldn't his duties be a lot less, seeing that he has a family?.

But, as for preisthood, that has been done away with. Christ is the only High Priest, and it's to him I should confess. The priesthood was set up for the Jewish people of Old, to prepare them for the coming and work of Christ. Their law was a school teacher to pave the way, but now Christ has come, died and is risen, we no longer need the school teacher. We know have his spirit and are walking in the grace bestowed upon us.

JASpice · #57 (**permalink**) 06-04-2009, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TraceeBaby

I'm not trying to diminish the role of priests, just saying that being celibate/unmarried isn't a requirement to be an extraordinary person.

It's definitely not... but it does make it easier to focus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TraceeBaby

I do not profess to be an expert in Catholicism (or other religions), but I thought that being celibate was a requirement of being a Priest. You say nothing is forced about it, so perhaps I am mistaken, but I've never met a priest in the Catholic Church who was permitted to take a wife. Perhaps "forced" is too strong a word - what I meant is simply that it is not permitted for priests.

The definition of forced means to impose by coercion or physical power. The priest knowingly make a choice. If they decide it's not for them after they make a vow, then they are free to go. BUT...breaking such a vow is something that the priest will have to deal with God on. Basically... the priest is marrying the church and not a human. By breaking the vow is like getting a divorce.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TraceeBaby

Are the other religions you reference Christian (i.e., do they take a vow a celibacy because Christ was celibate)? Or do they have other reasons for their vow of celibacy?

Buddhism & Islamic off the top of my head. I believe there are many reasons for the vow of celibacy. They relate to some scriptures in the bible, due to history of 2,000 years they have a good idea what has worked or not within the church, Trying to follow christ as closely as they can, etc....

Quote:

Originally Posted by TraceeBaby

My point was simply that in the first post, it seems to imply that church leaders in other religions don't do the same things, when I know that my pastor does all the things you've listed (though I think it's only 2 churches)...and his wife is frequently right there by his side in situations where she can be (e.g., advocating for the poor and hungry), and often in the pews at church during the other things (e.g., baptisms).

In the second post, while I agree with the spirit of it, I was just making the point that with the right partner, all these things are possible.

And I agree... never said I didn't. Actually, I stated earlier that I personally believe priests should be able to marry. I have had more deacons that I relate to then priests that I would find more effective if they were placed in a priest position.

JASpice · #58 (**permalink**) 06-04-2009, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrs. Groovy 144

I have to say that alot of times we read the old testament and the jewish laws and we take it to the extreme.

1Tim 4:1-3, says that in the latter times people will be following seducing spirits, which will cause them to forbid(deny, withhold, hinder) peolpe from getting married, abstain from meats, etc.

The priests in the Old testament WERE married, but it was only for a period of time they would consecrate themselves, but this would also go for the people who were NOT of the priesthood as well.

Paul wrote in his letters that he would that all men were as he was, which is unmarried, but he understood that not everyone had that gift, So he encouraged them to marry, and that it was not a sin if they did.

Everyone believes that catholic priests are not allowed to marry, reason being that to me they stress the fact that being unmarried makes it easier to do God's work...but mind you, taking care of your family is also God's work.

And if a man WAS married, and became a priest, since you say that they can be married and still hold the priesthood, wouldn't his duties be a lot less, seeing that he has a family?.

But, as for preisthood, that has been done away with. Christ is the only High Priest, and it's to him I should confess. The priesthood was set up for the Jewish people of Old, to prepare them for the coming and work of Christ. Their law was a school teacher to pave the way, but now Christ has come, died and is risen, we no longer need the school teacher. We know have his spirit and are walking in the grace bestowed upon us.

I agree once again with what you say here. It reminds me of why I have a difficult time with how some scripture is translated and why I personally have to pray deeply about frustrating issues to gain a clearer understanding. God speaks volumes.

As for a priest with a family having lesser duties... this part I do not know and would have to look further into.

And I fully agree.... "Christ is the only High Priest, and it's to him I should confess. "